Not that I'm saying that my loss was due to my army being bad by any stretch of the imagination; I made a fair few mistakes through the game and my opponent played well. Considering that I've been playing for less than 3 months I can only claim to know the rules, not the tactics that come with experience.
What I'm saying is that - as was stated in the forum post - people are clinging to the notion of inequality because when you're not steamrolling an opponent consistently it's easy to forget your wins and concentrate on your losses, saying that they're overpowered since that's how it's always been. As an example, take Flamers. I rolled pretty consistently shockingly for shots in that game, but next time I roll high there will still be claims of them being overpowered despite their history.
Speaking of Flamers, I painted these guys this week. Not done basing yet but here they are anyway:
One of the obvious strengths of Daemons is magic. While Master of Sorcery is indeed a great gift and underpriced for what you get, consider that it's just on a level 2 wizard. It's rare that an army doesn't have enough magic to use all of their power dice anyway, and without those extra points to cast, they just get used up faster. Without MoS, there would only be access to the Daemonic lores, and most of the time only Tzeentch. It's 50 extra points to get a level 1 on the other heralds, and the cheapest way to get a level 4 is with a Lord of Change for 535 pts. Nurgle and Slaanesh GDs cost 570 for L4, limiting them to 55 pts in gifts on a 2500pt game.
Greater Daemons, Flesh Hounds, Fiends and Bloodcrushers lost the ability to take on blocks of enemies when ranks started giving steadfast. The standard 12pt cost of Daemon core makes outranking in general more difficult. Enemies just don't flee like they used to, and on top of that Fear was nerfed. Suddenly Daemons just aren't as scary anymore.
Nurgle forces in general are weaker since regen and ward saves were merged, going from saving 2/3 wounds to 1/2. There goes the anvil. Time for another photo, here's the GUO all based and pretty.
Back to Flamers: they're 35 pts each with similarities to HE archers. 3.5 archers are 38.5 points and have an extra 1.5 wounds and attacks, along with longer range. The limited Flamer range makes constant movement necessary, giving -1 to hit every turn. Add to that the 25% limit on rares, meaning that you have to both limit Flamers to fit, then further to allow other rares, while archers are unlimited.
There we go, enough ranting for now. I've got to finish basing then moving onto a character in my never ending quest to paint an ever-growing pile of models.
"Bio-ball is OP"
"Force field is OP"
"Fungal growth is OP"
-Three Starcraft 2 players not understanding the point of balance
I disagree with some of what you have said.
ReplyDeleteCertainly Daemons are weaker in 8th (it would be difficult for them not to have gotten worse, they were by far the least balanced thing in wargaming history in 7th) but they certainly are in the top tier of armies.
Master of Sorcery is ridiculously good. 140 points is fairly cheap for a character that can 100% have the spell you planned it to. This makes them excellent throw away wizards for casting huge spells with 6 dice (you also get 4+ ward free to halve miscast wounds, some people pay 50 points for that luxury). The access to multiple loremasters makes daemons the best combo casters in the game. The Enfeebling Foe + Dwellers (search “reaction guy.jpg”)… Daemons are also the last army (after the changes to vampires) who can have multiple Fire Dragons at once, who also have 4+ ward. Being a “only” a level 2 doesn’t mean much. Level 4s are great at casting or dispelling many phases in the same phase, as the number of spells being attempted decreases the lower levels approach parity with level 4s. Also, having multiple loremasters means in some cases you can force the spell through (if you have ~8 dice and they have ~5, you can cast it twice and they can only dispel it once). Master of Sorcery is still a game breaking ability that can make broken armies if you roll that way.
Yes the elite units are no longer viable as an army wide strategy like they were before. Sometimes you can get them into the right combo charge and roll the game but its hard to justify the choice at army selection. IMO bloodletters are in the sweet spot of infantry that is just cheap enough to have in a horde while elite enough to not require buffing to kill anything in its path.
Fear never did much for Daemons as if they outnumbered you, you were going to break fear or not. The current fear is probably better, and can potentially make Slaanesh heavy armies viable if combo’d with death magic (doom and darkness) and/or Slaanesh magic (Phantasmagoria). Basically the idea would be to greatly multiply the survivability of units by ensuring ~50% of its opponents will have WS1. Death magic would have the added synergy of being capable of sniping BSBs and generals.
Nurgle was indeed hugely nerfed. Never worth it IMO. Wait for next edition :P
Ward is balanced IMO. Annoys opponents with artillery or lots of high strength things (particularly bolt throwers) but meh.
Flamers are pretty fantastic. You have to remember that archers can’t move and shoot. Skirmishers can march and shoot. This makes them far more survivable and able to bring their shots to where they actually matter. Also, and many of skirmishers natural prey (small fast units, knights, moderately fighty fast characters) have gone out of favor in 8th edition. Also consider that Flamers give the army a whole other dimension. 200 points spent and suddenly you have an answer to some stuff that armies like vampire counts or warriors of chaos can’t deal with.
Flamers have no real competition for rare slot. There is no reason why you shouldn’t take 2 units of 3 in every army.
MoS should definitely be made more expensive and/or 0-1 if it remains the same in the next book. I've never taken more than one anyway, although I did once couple the withering with plague wind to entertaining effect. Usually I take Life for vines and dwellers (I got it through 3 times last game).
DeleteRelating to Bloodletters: I take them pretty well every game, although I worked it out today and in a 30v30 horde (either with or without the Heralds), Daemonettes beat Bloodletters on average.
I came in after 8th started, so I have no properly experienced opinion on the subject of Fear. I'll have to give significant leadership bombing a go sometime; I've faced High Elves for the past 3 games, so the effect is a bit diminished.
Nurgle could be fixed up a bit with a reduction in price for the Herald (115 is too much for what he currently does) or improving regen to 3+, doubling survivability like it used to. Breaking out a Nurgle heavy army with Epidemius once in a while is fun though, although some Khorne Chaos Knights steamrolled everything anyway.
Where does it say that archers can't move and shoot? I know that crossbows can't, but as far as I can see regular bows just get the -1. My Flamers did have a better game recently, working in 2 groups of 4 with champions. Would you say that the champions are worth it?
I think the reason Daemonettes are winning in your example is because you are starting at 30. Try starting at 40. Bloodletters are a bit better against a few different kind of foes you might phase. They scare the shit out of characters (direct ~10 killing blow attacks at them :P) and are much better equipped against monsters (S5>S3). You could run a list based around Daemonette hordes, but if you play against the wrong army your stuffed.
Delete3+ regen on plague bearers would be fair enough. They were pretty crap compared to the other core in 7th and they are the only one that got nerfed :P
I guess archers can move and shoot, but they can't move in any direction 12". 5" forward, or wheeling greatly reduces their ability to shoot at the right things.
I don't think the champion is worth it. Firepower/point is about the same with or without, but wounds/point is obviously worse with the champion.
IMO Flamers should be run on the extreme flanks and try to kill anything that could corner them. Then move 9" from the side of his battleline and annoy the crap out of the opponent. If he turns a unit to face, lol you are skirmishers, just move to his flank again.
You're right, Daemonettes lose at 40 and 50, although if both sides are buffed and don't lose it, Daemonettes always win (of course, you'd be insane to let the Slaanesh Herald live past the first turn).
DeleteElf archers with musicians are fairly mobile with the fast reform. The extra range that archers have at least partially makes up for their lack of mobility until they get run down.
At a -2 or more modifier the Champion is actually worth it, counting as half an extra Flamer for 2.5 pts less. If you're at -1 for 3 rounds (movement) and -2 for 3 rounds (movement and long range/cover) it works out at being worth 14.58 pts. A bit of a toss up, but I'll give them a go without it next time.
That is a factor I didn't think about. Always try to take Kheralds with Juggernaughts and Armour of Khorne! Unfortunately you can't get a 0+ armour save (2+ save against S5!) and 3+ from just armour is ok, but a 1+ save herald basically makes it completely non-viable for anyone to target them before the rest of the unit. Make sure you try to engage him be the corner of his base (otherwise he takes up space with his massive base you could have other models attacking from).
DeleteWait... A Herald on Jugg is Monstrous Cavalry and therefore screwed if you are against artillery (no look-out-sir).
DeleteAn interesting idea all the same. Good enough to give me an excuse to buy the model. Adding in the Juggernaut attacks, stomp and immunity from stomps also makes him very decent in a challenge, and even if he blocks off a few Bloodletters in normal CC, that forces the enemy to waste attacks on him.
DeleteFor some reason I had it in my head that he couldn't join units while mounted. Silly me.
Damn. My reply wasn't quite more words than your blog post. I am disappointed.
ReplyDelete